(07-07-2010, 11:21 PM)opie Wrote:

(07-07-2010, 10:55 PM)nepawolf Wrote:

(07-07-2010, 10:16 PM)opie Wrote: Whats the BUZZ? Some one on poofa saying s*it?

Link was posted in the f the pafoa thread. http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/105029-example-what-not-do.html

Gotch read it thanks! I like the expert marine who started the thread ! Another brain washed expert because of the military !

(07-07-2010, 11:21 PM)opie Wrote: Gotch read it thanks! I like the expert marine who started the thread ! Another brain washed expert because of the military !

(07-08-2010, 12:55 PM)NEPAdestroyer Wrote: ..................but how would the poofa guys know? most of their guns hang on a wall

(07-08-2010, 01:04 PM)nepawolf Wrote:

(07-08-2010, 12:55 PM)NEPAdestroyer Wrote: ..................but how would the poofa guys know? most of their guns hang on a wall

I was with you until here. Apparently, according to the mob on PAFOA, the only appropriate place for a gun (if you're not OCing or CCing outside of the house) is unloaded in a safe. I got flamed away for telling Mickey not to waste his money on a safe, since apparently, every firearm owner should have one.

Tomcat088 Wrote:I want to preface this video by saying, I'm not usually someone that harps on safety in people's videos. I do understand that the camera changes perspective, depth perception, and we can't always make everything out, or have the angle to. Unlike lots of people, I DO shoot out of moving vehicles quite frequently, and not just at targets, but living breathing moving/running animals. Most of the time, it's at a MUCH higher rate of speed than what you're seeing in this video. I do this quite frequently, and am quite experienced. So I'd rather not hear some silly remarks about, "You don't do it, so you're just jealous", or "live a little, no harm was done, have some fun", etc. I shoot from moving vehicles several times a month, at 30 mph or or more sometimes. It's all done on private property, with consenting land owners, and area land owners, and no person or property has ever been injured or damaged. Either way, I think most people would say that I have experience on the subject at hand, and I know how to do it safely.

Now I wasn't there, so I don't know 100%, but just from a quick glance, I thought the video was pretty careless. I thought there were WAY too many risks taken, that didn't have to be taken. They can call it training all they want, but it looked like some people jacking around and having some fun, which is fine, but when you're not being as safe as you can, it's just silly. I agree with some others, that the first second or two of the video, it's hard to tell if the back seat muzzle swept the cameraman or not, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. There's some other things that I DO have problems with.

The first thing that I don't like about the video is that they're driving around in circles, and shooting out of both sides of the car. I don't have a problem with shooting from both sides of the car, but in the particular way that this is done, it doesn't sit well with me. It's way too easy to sweep the cameraman or anybody that is watching. It also makes it difficult when both shooters are trying to move, one shooter trying to get his firearm in, while the other is attempting to lean back, and get the muzzle to clear the window so he can get it out. It's just too much going on in a confined space, especially a car; I do it from a big truck. I also see people trying to turn and shoot sort of backwards on the first pass to engage the target more. You're just endangering the people that are behind you, and you could fall out or slip and fire rounds into the back. It's just unsafe to try to engage a target that you have passed, shoot at it while it's in front of or even with you, but once you pass it, let it go and let the next man engage the target. The problem is the guy in the front is trying to lean back to stay on target, and the buy in the back is trying to move forward and lead into and stay on the target. They're both going to the same place, and eventually those lines of fire will overlap, it's DANGEROUS. The front man shouldn't engage a target after it's past him, and the man in the back shouldn't engage the target until it's even with him, or slightly behind. This keeps the man in the back from sweeping or overlapping the guy in the front, and it's much safer for him to engage the target slightly behind him, because there's not another guy behind him. There's still a little danger when engaging the target that's slightly behind you, because when you're moving forwards, you may sweep new things with your muzzle that you can't see because you're looking back. Either way, it's bad form and unsafe in my book. Shooting with multiple shooters on the same side of the car requires EXTREME DISCIPLINE in shooters only engaging targets that are in their predetermined section/area/sector. If you're engaging outside of that, you're putting people in danger.

One of the MAJOR problems I have with this video is the driver, BAD PROBLEMS there. At the start of the video, you can see the driver with a silver/chrome colored pistol on the side of his leg/lap. It's slightly dangerous to have an unsecured weapon in the vehicle, but when you start trying to fumble around with it while driving, trigger finger discipline, muzzle discipline and all kinds of things go out the window. I know what happens in a moving car, and you SHOULD NOT be fumbling with any firearms and driving, it's STUPID. The driver should do nothing but drive, communicate with the shooters, and help keep them on target. They should NEVER be shooting, they should only be concerned about driving, and alerting shooters to obstacles that are coming up (so they don't sweep them, shoot them, or get surprised), and he should also be communicating with them which direction he's going, so they aren't surprised or spraying rounds random directions. The driver has a VERY important job, DRIVING and alerting the shooters what's coming, and putting them in a position to make the shot safely.

Look at the 11 second mark, the driver puts his pistol out the window and STARTS SHOOTING. You cannot drive the vehicle safely if you're trying to watch a target, the sights, and put rounds on target; you can't account for your shooting and where the bullets go if you're watching where you're driving. Also trying to engage targets in your sector, without crossing over into the shooter in the rear seat is just TOO MUCH to consider at once. You can see that the driver is trying to pay attention to his sights, because he scrapes the huge dead branch against the side of the vehicle. The shooter in the backseat gets hit by the branch a little and pulls his firearm in. There's another vehicle parked on the passenger side that he could have just as easily hit as the branch. Obviously he wasn't looked where he was driving, he was shooting. I assure you that 4 people, unrestrained in a vehicle, hitting another vehicle, with firearms, while shooting, even at 10mph would be BAD, REALLY BAD. The other problem is that the driver is attempting to shoot at a target that is most likely almost completely covered, he's shooting across the vegetation that is basically as tall as the vehicle, and the target is on the ground.

The other problem that I see is that the driver is attempting to watch the target, instead of drive. It's a stationary target, you know where it is, stop trying to see if someone is making hits, and drive the proper line. On the second pass, it's obvious that the driver isn't watching where he's driving, you can see him turn his head when the car starts to drift. The driver wasn't watching where he was going and how he was accelerating, and went into a drift. This is bad enough about the driving safety, it endangers people in the car, the vehicle, other people's property or something that may be inside of all that overgrowth. Lots of times in big acreage, if something is shredded and a spot isn't, it's because there's something that kept the tractor or mower from going in that area, usually it's property, metal or machinery. So it's bad enough about the driving, but there's something worse. The shooters are still shooting WHILE THEY'RE DRIFTING. Sure it looks cool, and was probably fun at the time, but it's just stupid. A drift usually involves a correction, which means that the direction is soon to change rather abruptly. This makes it quite easy to throw rounds who knows where, because the direction is changing and up to how well the driver can control the car (which he lost control and is why he had to stop for a second). The other problem is that while you're drifting, people are getting pushed and slung at least a little around the car. This means people can hit or push the shooter, and they may even lose control of their hands and hit a trigger, or hit someone with the stock of their firearm. Guys, I shoot from moving vehicles, you're not wearing seatbelts, you're trying to be mobile and up to the window squared up to shoot properly; people ARE gonna get slung around, it's the way it is. It's STUPID to be shooting while drifting, it's bad enough when 1 shooter is doing it, but when 2 from the same side of the car, come on. It's EASY for one shooter to feel the drift and go with it, but what happens if the other shooter doesn't and leaves his arm or something behind, or if he decides to stop engaging and wait for the drift to stop. It's WAY too easy for arm, or parts of the firearm to get into the other shooters line of fire.

I'm glad that no one was hurt, but it's still no reason to justify this activity as "ok" or "safe". It's a good thing that nobody was hurt, because it looks to me that this activity wasn't thought our, choreographed, and done properly. People earlier in this thread want to mention "military police" and other people doing these activities. I'm sorry, but MP's are NOT someone that I want to model my firearm handling on. I know LOTS of guys that have been in fist fights with other active duty soldiers, because even their muzzle discipline in the field was BAD and dangerous. There are ways to do things, and do them as safely as possible, this was NOT EVEN CLOSE to how it should be done. Some people need to get over it, they did something unsafe, and that many of us would think was stupid. They did it at their own risk, but when you post videos of it up to show people, and in places where opinions can be stated about it; don't be surprised if you have others who are not entertained and think it's STUPID. I'm more inclined to think that these are more on the "mall ninja" side of things. The other videos with the bad movement, in purple smoke and gas masks, shooting while in the smoke, and no communication or choreographed movement, and passing in front of and behind each other. They're just "wannabe's" and dangerous. That's just my take on it, but I wouldn't recommend others doing it this way.

(07-08-2010, 04:00 PM)jahwarrior72 Wrote: if i had multiple handguns and rifles, and lived with kids, then i'd definitely have a safe. if i had high end collectible guns that were worth enough to insure, i'd have a safe. but as a single guy with no kids living with me, a safe is unnecessary.

(07-08-2010, 04:07 PM)andrewjs18 Wrote:

(07-08-2010, 04:00 PM)jahwarrior72 Wrote: if i had multiple handguns and rifles, and lived with kids, then i'd definitely have a safe. if i had high end collectible guns that were worth enough to insure, i'd have a safe. but as a single guy with no kids living with me, a safe is unnecessary.

I disagree..what happens when you HAVE to leave your guns at home? ie- going to work that doesn't allow carry, going to a federal building that you can't carry in and etc.